—by Audrey Liebross

I recently had the pleasure of a telephone interview with Norm Lewis, star of stage and screen, before his appearance with Seth Rudetsky in Wickenburg, Arizona, at the Del E. Webb Center for the Performing Arts. I saw Norm on Broadway, as the Phantom. His performance was mesmerizing. For one thing, he’s an extraordinary actor, with incredible stage presence, as well as having an extraordinary singing voice. And, I tend to be partial to baritones; I believe that deeper, darker vocal tones go better with the Phantom’s story, instead of the lyric tenor voice I have come to associate more with Raoul, or with Jean Valjean, in Les Misérables.

Norm has been nominated for Emmy, Tony, and SAG Awards. He is the first Black performer to play the Phantom on Broadway (the second Black performer overall, after the late Robert Guillaume, who played the role in Los Angeles). He has garnered critical acclaim on Broadway, off-Broadway, and the West End, for, among other roles, Porgy, in Porgy and Bess; Javert in Les Misérables; the title role in Sweeney Todd; King Triton in The Little Mermaid; and the Phantom in the London concert version of Love Never Dies (the sequel to The Phantom of the Opera). On television, you may have seen him in Les Misérables: The 25th Anniversary Concert, which aired on PBS after being recorded live in the West End; as Caiaphas in the award-winning NBC television special, Jesus Christ Superstar Live in Concert!, and as Senator Edison Davis on Scandal. And yes, that’s him, in a few years’ old TV commercial for AARP’s supplemental Medicare plans. Norm’s albums, “The Norm Lewis Christmas Album” and “This is the Life,” can be found on Amazon.com and on cdbaby.com.

Norm is friendly, erudite, and knowledgeable. Our conversation was far more than an interview; I hung up the phone feeling that Norm had educated me on numerous theatre-related issues that I had always wondered about. I took advantage of the opportunity to ask him about my favorite musical — The Phantom of the Opera — but we also addressed far more serious matters, ranging from how to get young people interested in the theatre to theatre etiquette to opening up theatrical performance opportunities to more Black people, Indigenous people, and other People of Color (collectively known in the theatrical community as BIPOC individuals).

The first thing I asked Norm was what makes The Phantom of the Opera so popular. Let’s face it, the Phantom is not a very nice guy, but people adore him and his eponymous musical. (I, for one, am still in mourning, now that the show has closed on Broadway).  Norm said that he believes that people can relate to Erik, the Phantom, “because they probably have felt alienated like he did and have to put on a mask while in society in some capacity. And, you know, when we first meet people, we always wear a mask.” He added that people always try to put “our best self forward, and that's exactly what Erik is doing. Now, within that, he is also trying to prove himself as well.” He said that people “see the humanity that is trying to get out of this, what we consider a monster, and relate somehow to that character.”

I pointed out that most people don’t kill, but the Phantom does. Norm believes that Erik is “still that sympathetic character because he was wronged. … He was wronged as a kid, whether you believe that from the universe, from God, and being deformed or whatever, but his mom treated him terribly.” He acknowledged that most people have a “border where you won't go past that point,” but Norm’s interpretation is that the Phantom “has no lines.” Norm also sees the love story as part of the Phantom’s appeal, because “that's part of the humanity.” He believes the Phantom loves “not only [Christine’s] talent, but I think he's in love with who she is. And because she's so pure, I think he is striving to make himself the object of her desire.”        

I mentioned that another Phantom, possibly John Cudia, had said that he played Erik as being on the autism spectrum and wondered if Norm agreed with that interpretation. Norm said, “I'm not sure about the spectrum thing,” but he acknowledged, “That's an amazing way to look at it,” and pointed out that John Cudia, from what he had heard, was a “fantastic Phantom.” (Having seen them both, I can confirm that their performances were both, indeed, extraodinary.) This, in my opinion, was a perfect example of Norm’s graciousness — he went out of his way to acknowledge another performer’s excellence in the same role that he had played.

Norm said people wanting their strong feelings to be validated is what may have caused some of the political ferment in the last few years, but noted, “I think you have to have some sort of rules and regulations, because there are other people that live in this society.” He pointed out that, in a melting pot, it is necessary “to adjust to the way [other] people live their lives,” and that “some of those differences are challenging to people.” Norm believes that “there should be an innate sort of humanitarian respectability.”

I asked Norm about one of his other tortured characters — Javert, the obsessive gendarme, from Les Misérables. Javert “was born into this extraordinary circumstance. You know, he was born in jail. And to a woman that he himself considers a whore. And so he wants to be seen, again, validated in a way that is from an ideological, religious way. He wants to be seen as pure.” He sees Javert as thinking, “I'm better than what was given to me.” But Javert had no ability to see nuance when it came to wrongdoing: “No matter if you steal bread or if you kill someone, it's the same thing. Sin is sin.”

I commented that I always thought that the Phantom would have become more like Jean Valjean, if someone had served the role in his life that the Bishop of Digne did in Valjean’s, exhorting Valjean to use the silver he had stolen “to become an honest man.” Norm said he had never thought about that aspect of the roles, but that his director in Les Miz, John Caird, said he saw Valjean and Javert as the same person, where “one decided to go a different route” from the other.

Having psychoanalyzed some of Norm’s troubled characters, we turned to the question of increasing theatre accessibility to audiences who do not usually have opportunies to attend. Norm answered, “There needs to be better outreach at a younger age.” He suggested having performers go to elementary schools, and even introduce kids to theatre as young as kindergarten ate. “Have some sort of way to get those kids for free. Maybe some sort of sponsored situation where those kids can go to a show.” Use characters such as Dora the Explorer, Sponge Bob, or Barney the Dinosaur, to “introduce them to that live sort of thing. And then gradually continue that throughout the educational system.” He reminisced about a governmental program under which he got to “go to the orchestra and see symphonies.” He expressed regret that similar programs under the National Endowment for the Arts have been cut. “I wish there was a way for … kids to have that sort of access.”

But there are more issues than access, including what I see as a philosophical difference between what younger adults, such as my Millennial kids, and Baby Boomers expect from theatre. I asked Norm to comment on the changing mores from the staid, overwhelmingly white traditional theatregoers to those in upcoming generations. I mentioned one young Black man I’d read about who was opening a new theatre, and who emphatically rejected the theatre etiquette of older, white individuals in favor of allowing audience members to boo, to shout back, and to walk around. I asked Norm whether he saw a different philosophy of theatre among younger people, and, if so, how we, the older ones, could fit into it.

Norm said, “I don't mind the newer things like Hamilton incorporating hip-hop into the theater or other music or rock and roll or those kinds of things. I think that's great, but I think that tradition needs to still kind of stay the same where you come and you sit down and you shut up.” He said that applauding is fine, “but you also have to consider there are other people who would pay a lot of money to come and see these things.” He specifically decried the tendency of some patrons to sing along. “There needs to be some rules and regulations regarding that,” he stated emphatically. He also commented on the young man I mentioned who wants people to express themselves freely in his theatre, saying,” I don't know if I agree with … that person,” but added that he’d “love to have a conversation” with him.

 We next discussed the changes that more traditional theatregoers, including people such as Norm and me, are likely to consider favorably. He said, “Over the years, we've gone from listening to Rodgers and Hammerstein to Andrew Lloyd Webber doing Jesus Christ Superstar. And even when that came out, people were like, ‘Oh, no. No. We can't have that kind of music,’ but now it's one of the best shows ever. Or Hair. So, I do understand the evolution of what theatre is, but I still think that there has to be some tradition that stays.”

Norm talked about immersive theatre’s changing the audience’s experience. Immersive theatre, also known as interactive theatre, breaks the fourth wall; the actors interact with the audience members. For Norm, the key to providing audiences with an immersive experience that is still familiar appears to be ensuring that the interactions do not interfere with telling the story: “I just did Guys and Dolls over in England and it's very immersive, but still you get the story.” He also mentioned, Here Lies Love, which just closed on Broadway, as highly interactive, “but people understood it from that standpoint,” and, once again, it didn't interrupt the story.  

Norm described his recent performance in Sweeney Todd, with New York’s Barrow Street Theatre, whose venue was outfitted as a pie shop, as “very immersive.” “I put the blade to people's throats and I was on top of tables and jumping around and stuff, but people came for that experience and it didn't interrupt the story. In fact, it added to the story.”

We finished our conversation by discussing what I consider to be one of the third rails of casting, specifically, how casting a BIPOC actor in a part that is traditionally played by white actors might affect the story line and the actor’s interpretation. Norm answered, “When you get to roles that are very universal that don't talk about race,” the audience can just “suspend the belief of what that originally was.” He noted specifically his having played King Triton, Ariel’s father, in the Broadway production of The Little Mermaid. He asked rhetorically, “Who knows what race the mythical character is? Who cares? [If] I can portray it in a way that is believable,” then, “hopefully the audience will go along.”

But what decisions does he make when he plays iconic roles usually played by white performers? He mentioned the Phantom and charming con artist Harold Hill, in The Music Man, which he played at Washington, DC’s Kennedy Center, as examples of such roles. He said, “If I, as an actor, can portray that character, bring the truth of who that character is, I'm not definitely playing him as a black person. I mean, in fact, there was a line that was in the show that was questionable for me that we discussed, and I said, keep the line in. And it was about me being caught before I got on the train, and then, you know, they were going to say tar and feather him.” Norm explained that this would ordinarily be a racist statement because so many of the people who suffered from that form of torture were Black. He continued, “But because this role is not necessarily a black role, I said, keep it in because that is what is written that's in the show. I didn't want to interrupt that whole thing.” He added that the show “had nothing to do with race.”

Norm contrasted universal shows, such as The Phantom of the Opera, My Fair Lady, Sweeney Todd, and The Music Man, with Big River, which tells the story of Huck Finn. He said, “There's no way I could play Huck Finn because it deals with race. It's all about race.” But, otherwise, in a universal story or one not about race, “As an actor, if I'm the right person to play the role, then hopefully the audience will grow and suspend … belief and go along with the storyline.” Norm noted that, every time he has played Sweeney Todd, the performers playing his wife and daughter have been white. He said, “The audience went with me. They went with the story.”

Interestingly, when Norm was cast to play Javert in the Broadway Les Miz revival in 2006, he “got a little bit of backlash.” Apparently, there were individuals who argued that there were no Black people in positions of power like Javert’s at the time the story took place. Post-Hamilton, where every founding father, obviously each of them white, is played by a BIPOC performer, this might not have created a controversy, but then, it did. However, even then, Norm said, “They didn’t do their history.” This is because General Thomas-Alexandre Dumas (father of Alexandre Dumas, pere), who was Black and born in Haiti, became a respected general in the French Army. “So, I could have very much likely been … a cop in Paris at that time.” Norm added, “People are still quick to judge and quick to have their own opinions without doing their homework or their research.”

Although Norm is obviously an expert on the issues that arise when a BIPOC Broadway star (and, despite his referring to himself as a “journeyman” performer, I believe that he is a star in the very best sense of the word), I disagree with him on one point. Specifically, I am not certain that The Phantom of the Opera is as free of racial undertones as he says, in that the story could change subtly in ways if particular characters (as opposed to the actors playing the role) were Black. For example, the Phantom might have been treated shamefully because of his race as much as his face; France prided itself on equality, but Captain Alfred Dreyfuss was still railroaded because of antisemitism. Yet, as Norm kept emphasizing, the key to success in a musical is to convince the audience to suspend disbelief. In my opinion, Javert could be unequivocally white, as one of the illustrations accompanying the original novel implies, and Norm would still be the best individual to cast in the role, with his charisma, brilliant acting, and mellifluous baritone.

As Norm said, “I am someone of color. But if you can get past that and just see the story and the truth or what this character is going through …  that's okay.”

To see where Norm will be appearing in coming months, consult his Web site at www.NormLewis.com. You can read Coachella Valley Theatre World’s article about his appearance in Wickenburg, Arizona, with Seth Rudetsky at https://www.cvtworld.com/reviews/seth-rudetsky-amp-norm-lewis-wow-the-crowd-in-wickenburg-arizona.